Pyrometallurgy: Roasting, Smelting, Refining & Electrowinning

Pyrometallurgy: Roasting, Smelting, Refining & Electrowinning

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Looking for existing knowledge on an alloy that was refered to as "old germen silver" (2 replies and 1 comment)

M
spikey1973
9 months ago
spikey1973 9 months ago
I have a question about the (exact) composition of an alloy which is known to be referred 
to as "old German silver", mainly in the UK/US. Finding out composition of this (historic) alloy is important to me, because this material
was used for the manufacturing of what is now known to be “the better ligatures” for
instruments such as clarinet and saxophone.

Currently, this metal is no longer used for the manufacturing of these products,
resulting in a clear deterioration of the sound of the instruments due to the use of
acoustically inferior materials in these ligatures, which is (IMHO) important for the
final timber of these instruments.

Old german silver Bonade ligatures are sold for very high prices as the are very saught after
by the professionals, for just this reason.

I have a back ground as Goldsmith, as well as physiscs (primairly photonics).
I am trying to recreate this alloy to re recreats as close as possible the acoustic qualities
of this alloy. Unfortunately the knowledge of this alloy is (as expected) not easily obtainable.
knowledge has been lost in history or at least not easily retrieved online.
Now I hope that this information may already be known within the trade amongst you
metallurgists.

I tried to contact salomon in the netherlands, but only recieved a brief answer that this is
also not know to them. As a goldsmith, I've worked with the metal then known to me as alpaca, which I think to be more
commonly refered to as nickel silver.
Salomon also produces this material with slight differences in composition: Wire: Cu Ni12 Zn24 (also called for soft plate and alpaca 12) Plate: Cu Ni18 Zn20 (hard) Rod: Cu Ni7 Zn39 Pb3 Mn2

Additonally I have found reference to a material "Genuine german silver"
"
The genuine German silver, made from the original ore of Hildburghausen in Henneberg, analyzed by Keferstein, was found to consist of: Cu40.4 Ni31.6 Zn25.4 Fe2.6 Source: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_American_Cyclop%C3%A6dia_(1879)/German_Silver Furthermore, I am also familiar with the "fact" that in the past in Europe,
but especially in Germany, a silver alloy of 800/1000 was used with a mix of copper and
other accessories. Taking the name into account, this can also be seen as “old German silver”. However, this alloy is also no longer used, but is of course fairly easy to recreate. However, I strongly suspect that the material in question is not a real silver alloy for the
following reasons.

I myself own a German instrument from that time and the ligature and the accompanying
“cap” are certainly not made of a silver-containing alloy.
However, I am not 100% sure that “we” are talking about the same metal alloys here.
Assuming so couldlead me onto the wrong path.

Furthermore, the acoustic quality of sterling silver seems not to be ideal for ligatures.
IMHO, this reduces the static "likelihood" of an actually silver alloy been used by the
high quality manufacturers on the old germany. Unfortunatel I am not familiar with the ferrous and/or diamagnetic properties of the
new silver metals. So I can't test the ligature / cap i have on these properties either.

I therefore hope that this is a point that you may be able to help me with.
and also possible differences between the different alloys in this area.
Unfortunately, of course, I don't have a ligature of a known (without a doubt) old german silver alloy. .
Any kind of help on the topic would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.
 
Mike
9 months ago
Mike 9 months ago

German silver normaly does not contain any silver, usually it is  60% copper, 20% nickel and 20% zinc.  It is considered a subset of brass.

M
spikey1973
9 months ago
spikey1973 9 months ago

I assumed this indeed, I am still wondering if there is a alloy difference between the,

"old german silver" alloy, and the modern Cu60Ni20Zn20% alloy.

As, as I tried to show above, there is small differences in the base configuration that have fairly large effects on the material.

As of such I was wundering if the Hildburghausen alloy was at all common in germany, and used in the (general) industrie for fabrication, specifically the instrument industry. 

 

 

 

M
spikey1973
9 months ago

Other alloys I found to be used is Cu50Ni25%Zn25% for imitation silver for knives and forks.
Chinese white silver or packfong (paktong) the amount of copper is Like the old hildburghausen ore, German silver for casting contains 2 or 3% of lead, also Manganin.. but this is a irrelevant alloy (for me) as wellas platinoid.

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